About the same as the Swedish donation of around 200 of the lightly armored pvb 302. Excellent in terrain and for transport. But today, not even tanks are optimal on the front.
Wes, I’m loving your insights and have subscribed. A perhaps macabre question: if an RPG or a drone hit an M113 everyone inside it dies, but what about a tank?
I can't imagine the point of Italy having 400 of these clunky track-based vehicles but as you note, the elves in the UKR equipment shops will do their magic and wind up with 400 deadly vehicles perfect for use on the eastern front. I'm more excited, though, by the statement that Italy's government is making about supporting Ukraine no matter what Big Brother decides to do or not do. With the US sliding into irrelevance regarding Putin's war, opening access to the Italian satellite system is a major step forward, exactly when it's needed.
With any other army, these would be scrap metal or museum pieces. But Ukraine will no doubt turn them into deadly war machines. Maybe uparmored drone launch platforms that are mobile and fast-ish. Just one possibility.
Back in the 90s, a friend told me the story with not a lot of details, but I assume it involved an IDF M113 in Lebanon in the EARLY 80S. HE’S AN AMERICAN, BUT HE LIVED IN ISRAEL FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS. THEY WERE ON A MISSION AND THEY SPOTTED a Syrian TANK IN THE DISTANCE. There was definitely some fear and perhaps uniform wetness in the APC, and I don’t remember if the tank fired at them, or it was distracted by other Israeli armor, but they lived to tell the tale. I remember he said they were looking out Gun ports. I don’t know if that’s standard on the M113 or it was an Israeli modification for individual soldiers. I’m also assuming that it was an M113, but I don’t know for sure.
Thanks. Great pic! A quick google search mentioned that some had 4 gunports. I assume they had covers inside to protect during high shrapnel situations.
As you correctly say, the M113's very simplicity lends it to ingenious modifications. Ukraine's greatest strength is a regiment of Caractacus Potts, ready to design and implement such mods. I await such developments with great interest.
I'll bet Ukraine's mechanics are thankful for their simplicity and and parts availability. Even if not all of the vehicles work, I'm sure parts can be cannibalized for the others
Plus, I hope the Ukrainian govt can buy kits or parts for converting them as you say. Especially the Vulcan cannons for shooting down drones
The modularity of the MA113 reminds me of the Rhino tanks that the Imperium forces use in Warhammer 40k. Many years ago, I bought a handful of the basic Rhino kits and then bought the parts for a Whirlwind rocket launcher, and an Immolator tank for a bit less money than the full boxed kits would have cost. Had to buy the Exorcists for full price though
Chris, “obsolete death traps” is exactly how I described them back in 2022 in a Medium article I wrote when the US sent some. Three years later, I have a lot more confidence in Ukraine’s ability to MacGyver the hell out of these things.
Stealing Russian design strategy, O my! It’s a USSR style-cheap, simple, make a lot of them. Who would have thunk it? But that’s the old AK-47 vs. M14 argument.
As always, highly insightful analysis! And well written.
About the same as the Swedish donation of around 200 of the lightly armored pvb 302. Excellent in terrain and for transport. But today, not even tanks are optimal on the front.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansarbandvagn_302
Very true. Tanks have an incredibly short lifespan these days.
Wes, I’m loving your insights and have subscribed. A perhaps macabre question: if an RPG or a drone hit an M113 everyone inside it dies, but what about a tank?
I can't imagine the point of Italy having 400 of these clunky track-based vehicles but as you note, the elves in the UKR equipment shops will do their magic and wind up with 400 deadly vehicles perfect for use on the eastern front. I'm more excited, though, by the statement that Italy's government is making about supporting Ukraine no matter what Big Brother decides to do or not do. With the US sliding into irrelevance regarding Putin's war, opening access to the Italian satellite system is a major step forward, exactly when it's needed.
My bet is the clever Ukrainians will adapt it for other more deadly uses.
to quote tescos ad, every little helps
Always thinking outside the box 📦 it seems (no pun intended). Well written & insightful Wes
As you say, I am sure that the Ukrainian McGyvers will make the best use of those M113's.
With any other army, these would be scrap metal or museum pieces. But Ukraine will no doubt turn them into deadly war machines. Maybe uparmored drone launch platforms that are mobile and fast-ish. Just one possibility.
Anyone can contribute to satelite for Ukraine
https://www.misedrak.cz/en
Back in the 90s, a friend told me the story with not a lot of details, but I assume it involved an IDF M113 in Lebanon in the EARLY 80S. HE’S AN AMERICAN, BUT HE LIVED IN ISRAEL FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS. THEY WERE ON A MISSION AND THEY SPOTTED a Syrian TANK IN THE DISTANCE. There was definitely some fear and perhaps uniform wetness in the APC, and I don’t remember if the tank fired at them, or it was distracted by other Israeli armor, but they lived to tell the tale. I remember he said they were looking out Gun ports. I don’t know if that’s standard on the M113 or it was an Israeli modification for individual soldiers. I’m also assuming that it was an M113, but I don’t know for sure.
I found a great pic of an Israeli 113 when I was looking for images for this piece. I ended up not including it, but here's a picture of a column of Israeli M113s with what appear to be gun ports. Definitely not standard but useful: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/APC_Vehicles_Driving_to_the_Gaza_Border_%2814723353382%29_%28pan%29.jpg
Thanks. Great pic! A quick google search mentioned that some had 4 gunports. I assume they had covers inside to protect during high shrapnel situations.
As you correctly say, the M113's very simplicity lends it to ingenious modifications. Ukraine's greatest strength is a regiment of Caractacus Potts, ready to design and implement such mods. I await such developments with great interest.
I'll bet Ukraine's mechanics are thankful for their simplicity and and parts availability. Even if not all of the vehicles work, I'm sure parts can be cannibalized for the others
Plus, I hope the Ukrainian govt can buy kits or parts for converting them as you say. Especially the Vulcan cannons for shooting down drones
The modularity of the MA113 reminds me of the Rhino tanks that the Imperium forces use in Warhammer 40k. Many years ago, I bought a handful of the basic Rhino kits and then bought the parts for a Whirlwind rocket launcher, and an Immolator tank for a bit less money than the full boxed kits would have cost. Had to buy the Exorcists for full price though
Oh man, you brought 40K into this convo. That can get me talking for hours. Yes, the Rhino it’s like the worst tank in the space marine armory. 😂
These 113s would be obsolete death-traps in the hands of anyone else. Who knows how Ukraine will use them.
Chris, “obsolete death traps” is exactly how I described them back in 2022 in a Medium article I wrote when the US sent some. Three years later, I have a lot more confidence in Ukraine’s ability to MacGyver the hell out of these things.
Time will tell. We’ll see.
Stealing Russian design strategy, O my! It’s a USSR style-cheap, simple, make a lot of them. Who would have thunk it? But that’s the old AK-47 vs. M14 argument.
Slava heroiam! Good article. So glad to see Ukraine is getting better satellites than what muck provided. Safer from sabotage, too!