I saw the article and video and, not being military, am very concerned. I understand the practical applications but think it’s a rather bad idea to program robots to kill humans. It’s that AI could wipe out humanity within a decade plays into this concern. The other factor is how interested Musk and the apocalyptic fantasizing billionaires are in this advancement. Oh boy! Musk with Terminator! What could possibly go wrong???!!!
I agree that there are limitations to robotics, and as a Canadian living in the Great White North, I am comforted by the fact that the batteries and joints won’t survive a -40 C winter week. A lack of decent roads and the power outages that happen with most storms. Oh, and beaver dams and Canadian geese.
However, whatever Ukraine develops Russia adapts and starts using as well and I imagine that China would love to see how their tech works on the battlefield too. I also have fears that Russian controllers could very well add this type of evil to their already sadistic civilian safari drones list.
There is no going back, but I do hope that this Pandora’s box doesn’t contain even more unexpected suffering as it is opened.
Honestly Pandora’s box has been opened for this. There are AI controlled drones already out there. Not humanoid, but killing on orders. It’s a question whether they are totally independent on humans, but they are going there. For Ukraine it is a way of saving human lives, their own soldiers. This doesn’t mean that everything is fine because the good boys use them. There are lot of problems and risks out there. The big problem is actually that so many of us are breaking the Commandment : « Thou shall not kill». But how do we stop killers?
How could you be so cruel to a new recruit? Mind you, we would send them to the quartermaster (QM) to get the keys to the square (so we could march), or to ask him for a brush & paint to ‘paint the last post’.
Ha! I have one more hazing story: When I was in AF tech school, we would burn Air Force technical manuals to CD-ROM discs, and after burning one such disc, I took it out of the computer and convinced my trainee that it was heavier because of all the information stored on it now. He held a blank disc in one hand and a "full" one in the other and swore the full one was indeed heavier. I was an asshole. I'm slightly more mature now.
In reality, burning information to disc with a laser slightly vaporizes a dye layer, so it might theoretically become an unimaginably tiny fraction lighter, not heavier, though the change is unmeasurable.
Well, that means buying Chinese ankles and feet, wrists and hands. Plus Chinese AI to run the bodies, plus Chinese batteries. That's a SERIOUS lot of Remnimbi to buy, right about the time China's courts will be looking to seize about $50 billion in American government assets (Iranian civil courts judgements against the American government for the damages its illegal attacks on Iran caused)
Oh, and forget about using Musk's Starlink to offload the processing of the 3d world detection and real world maneuvering. Russia has a countermeasure against that.
It seems to me that rather than trying to make a humanoid robot capable of traversing battlefield conditions on legs, a simpler solution is use tracks for mobility and focus on developing the humanoid hands and arms. How it gets to the task isn't as important as how it can perform the task once there. Having run equipment most of my life, tracks are the way to go 99% of the time.
If you like to kill the enemy, why not model robots after a hippo? Which is a very deadly animal. Or maybe even a mosquito ( kills more people per annum )?
If you like to do logistics, why not design a robot that is better at keeping a low profile and ‘walks’ faster for longer distances with less noise?
Poor humanoids. They get designed by humans that like themselves too much.
Remember anything developed will be exported globally. Just as the drones have been, so will these if successful. True potential to become the world of the terminator. We now find ourselves in a situation where we have to develop such things to keep in front of adversaries. I believe unleashing the AI ‘genie’ will bring on the increased destruction of mankind through technology.
I have sometimes tried to update you on old time classic Culture (capital C international) like Tom Lehrer. Still think you should check him out. But here go for the more modern SciFi stuff, like Martha Wells Murderbot series. Now there you can read about the troubles of killing robots. Apart from the literature recommendation I think your analysis explained very well why humanoid robot is a bad idea. Robots fighting wars? They are already. Humanoid? Why bother? Don’t go for generalists, go for specialists.
I really appreciate your perspective on this topic, Wes. A serious technical limitation on tasks a robot can perform is limited sensors on the hand. A human hand has more than 17,000 touch receptors plus sensors for heat and pressure. A lot of what lets us handle variability in doing things is the data from our sensors. Robots today top out at about 100. This is why robots still can't sew flexible fabrics. Think about handling ammunition in adverse environments. I'm skeptical about the robots being able to do that.
Ok maybe … if the humanoid combat bot concept happens … it can be the breacher- ballistic shield or heavier plates whatever … it accompanies the assault infantry into the assault riding in the vehicles … then they are first into the dugouts that needs to be cleared - absorb the hits - really dangerous to be the first in guy in clearing out these dugouts… then either clear the dugout by itself or get help from the more fragile human buddies from the back … or can be used in urban clearing… first into the room… uses its well protected sensors to scout for the rest … that can be a start while they try to develop this technology more.
The real breakthrough will not be the humanoid itself, but integrating sensors, UAVs, ground robots and effectors into a resilient network that can operate under battlefield conditions and electronic warfare.
On a totally different note I still remember your analysis of the AI and the bombing of the girl school in Iran in the start of the war. Your analysis explained very (or others reaching similar conclusions just made the headlines of Norways most serious news paper. The second biggest, but most intellectual. I have a photo of the frontpage where it says the same as you. Citing UN sources (no claim to fame I am afraid). I don’t know how to upload it. But the intersting thing is that this is slowly entering «common knowledge». You were both early and explained it well, and called it by its name. War crime. Well done.
I saw the article and video and, not being military, am very concerned. I understand the practical applications but think it’s a rather bad idea to program robots to kill humans. It’s that AI could wipe out humanity within a decade plays into this concern. The other factor is how interested Musk and the apocalyptic fantasizing billionaires are in this advancement. Oh boy! Musk with Terminator! What could possibly go wrong???!!!
I agree that there are limitations to robotics, and as a Canadian living in the Great White North, I am comforted by the fact that the batteries and joints won’t survive a -40 C winter week. A lack of decent roads and the power outages that happen with most storms. Oh, and beaver dams and Canadian geese.
However, whatever Ukraine develops Russia adapts and starts using as well and I imagine that China would love to see how their tech works on the battlefield too. I also have fears that Russian controllers could very well add this type of evil to their already sadistic civilian safari drones list.
There is no going back, but I do hope that this Pandora’s box doesn’t contain even more unexpected suffering as it is opened.
Well said, Susan.
Honestly Pandora’s box has been opened for this. There are AI controlled drones already out there. Not humanoid, but killing on orders. It’s a question whether they are totally independent on humans, but they are going there. For Ukraine it is a way of saving human lives, their own soldiers. This doesn’t mean that everything is fine because the good boys use them. There are lot of problems and risks out there. The big problem is actually that so many of us are breaking the Commandment : « Thou shall not kill». But how do we stop killers?
I wonder if that commandment applies to AI? It appears to have not applied through most of human history so I imagine not.
I am afraid you have a point.
How could you be so cruel to a new recruit? Mind you, we would send them to the quartermaster (QM) to get the keys to the square (so we could march), or to ask him for a brush & paint to ‘paint the last post’.
Ha! I have one more hazing story: When I was in AF tech school, we would burn Air Force technical manuals to CD-ROM discs, and after burning one such disc, I took it out of the computer and convinced my trainee that it was heavier because of all the information stored on it now. He held a blank disc in one hand and a "full" one in the other and swore the full one was indeed heavier. I was an asshole. I'm slightly more mature now.
In reality, burning information to disc with a laser slightly vaporizes a dye layer, so it might theoretically become an unimaginably tiny fraction lighter, not heavier, though the change is unmeasurable.
Six feet of flight line, a box of airfoil, a gallon of propwash... 😆
I'm not convinced a bipedal robot would be as useful as a quadruped one with "human like" arms and hands. I'm willing to wait and see.
Code-name Centaur-1.
+ Solves/works around quite a few balance problems.
+ potentially carry a greater load
- more limbs/joints to go wrong
- would need a bigger power source
I just wrote the same...
Well, that means buying Chinese ankles and feet, wrists and hands. Plus Chinese AI to run the bodies, plus Chinese batteries. That's a SERIOUS lot of Remnimbi to buy, right about the time China's courts will be looking to seize about $50 billion in American government assets (Iranian civil courts judgements against the American government for the damages its illegal attacks on Iran caused)
Oh, and forget about using Musk's Starlink to offload the processing of the 3d world detection and real world maneuvering. Russia has a countermeasure against that.
Heads like “Jonny Cab” “Terminator?
It seems to me that rather than trying to make a humanoid robot capable of traversing battlefield conditions on legs, a simpler solution is use tracks for mobility and focus on developing the humanoid hands and arms. How it gets to the task isn't as important as how it can perform the task once there. Having run equipment most of my life, tracks are the way to go 99% of the time.
If you like to kill the enemy, why not model robots after a hippo? Which is a very deadly animal. Or maybe even a mosquito ( kills more people per annum )?
If you like to do logistics, why not design a robot that is better at keeping a low profile and ‘walks’ faster for longer distances with less noise?
Poor humanoids. They get designed by humans that like themselves too much.
I wonder: is Fedorov on the way to create a private army of robots, something between Blackrock and Wagner, totally at his service?
Sounds like the villain in a James Bond movie but is credible. Very cautious of the man, how much ever bright he is
Remember anything developed will be exported globally. Just as the drones have been, so will these if successful. True potential to become the world of the terminator. We now find ourselves in a situation where we have to develop such things to keep in front of adversaries. I believe unleashing the AI ‘genie’ will bring on the increased destruction of mankind through technology.
I have sometimes tried to update you on old time classic Culture (capital C international) like Tom Lehrer. Still think you should check him out. But here go for the more modern SciFi stuff, like Martha Wells Murderbot series. Now there you can read about the troubles of killing robots. Apart from the literature recommendation I think your analysis explained very well why humanoid robot is a bad idea. Robots fighting wars? They are already. Humanoid? Why bother? Don’t go for generalists, go for specialists.
I really appreciate your perspective on this topic, Wes. A serious technical limitation on tasks a robot can perform is limited sensors on the hand. A human hand has more than 17,000 touch receptors plus sensors for heat and pressure. A lot of what lets us handle variability in doing things is the data from our sensors. Robots today top out at about 100. This is why robots still can't sew flexible fabrics. Think about handling ammunition in adverse environments. I'm skeptical about the robots being able to do that.
Ok maybe … if the humanoid combat bot concept happens … it can be the breacher- ballistic shield or heavier plates whatever … it accompanies the assault infantry into the assault riding in the vehicles … then they are first into the dugouts that needs to be cleared - absorb the hits - really dangerous to be the first in guy in clearing out these dugouts… then either clear the dugout by itself or get help from the more fragile human buddies from the back … or can be used in urban clearing… first into the room… uses its well protected sensors to scout for the rest … that can be a start while they try to develop this technology more.
Centaurs are humanoids?
Four legs, two arms...
Exactly i think about
Excellent analysis.
The real breakthrough will not be the humanoid itself, but integrating sensors, UAVs, ground robots and effectors into a resilient network that can operate under battlefield conditions and electronic warfare.
On a totally different note I still remember your analysis of the AI and the bombing of the girl school in Iran in the start of the war. Your analysis explained very (or others reaching similar conclusions just made the headlines of Norways most serious news paper. The second biggest, but most intellectual. I have a photo of the frontpage where it says the same as you. Citing UN sources (no claim to fame I am afraid). I don’t know how to upload it. But the intersting thing is that this is slowly entering «common knowledge». You were both early and explained it well, and called it by its name. War crime. Well done.
A couple of websites you should check out regarding the possibility of having a robot do things. https://bostondynamics.com/blog/enterprise-robotics-redefined/ for the robot and this one for the ability hand that can provide tactile feedback. https://www.psyonic.io/ability-hand